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Old 10-26-2020, 10:43 PM   #1
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Default Does the Flag Belong in the Church?

First of all, I am gathering information for a homework assignment in a theology class (based on the beliefs of the United Methodist Church). That being said....

We had a discussion in class tonight about this very subject. Obviously, I have a very strong opinion about this which I will keep to myself for a few days as not to influence the group.

First, the reasons discussed not having the flag:
  • The Kingdom of Heaven represents all nations, not just one. To have the flag of one country distracts from the message we are all God's children.
  • The flag of one country might make someone from a different country feel unwelcomed.
  • The flag possibly promotes the love of country more than the love of God, thus possibly making the flag an idol that we worship.

And before we continue with the list for having the flag, I first need to explain an analogy. One of the Wesleyan models we are looking at as the Kingdom of Heaven as a House. The house consists of 3 parts: The Porch, The Door and The House itself. The ultimate goal is to get people into the house. But it is impossible to get people to the house if you first do not get them on the porch. Once on the porch, you work on getting them through the door and into the house.

Now reasons for the flag in the Church:
  • We have patriotic songs in our hymnals. (For those that don't know, the UMC Hymnal is regarded almost as highly as the Bible. Maybe even moreso by some...)
  • Jesus once said, "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends."
  • In the Great Commission, Jesus instructed the Disciples to teach to all of the world, but beginning first at Jerusalem (meaning your hometown). Since there was a reference to starting at your hometown, what is wrong with honoring your home country? (Hence represented by the flag). In some cases, the love of hometown (or patriotism) might be an effective tool to get people "on the porch."

I welcome any and all discussion. This is a fact finding mission for a homework paper to see what people's opinions are. If you do not feel comfortable answering publicly, send me a private message. No names will be used on my assignment.

Thanks in advance.
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Old 10-27-2020, 02:45 AM   #2
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Having our flag in the church recognizes

that our country protects our right to

Freedom of Religion...
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Old 10-27-2020, 06:08 AM   #3
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Old 10-27-2020, 06:37 AM   #4
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That is an excellent question and an interesting theme to bring up. Not being the religious type I will try my best to give you my take on the subject:

1- The Kingdom of Heaven represents all nations, not just one. To have the flag of one country distracts from the message we are all God's children.


Then why does the Vatican have it's own flag?

2- The flag of one country might make someone from a different country feel unwelcomed.

No, not really, embassies fly their nations flags and people still flock to the US embassy all the time.

3- The flag possibly promotes the love of country more than the love of God, thus possibly making the flag an idol that we worship.

Why should God be the only thing we are allowed to love?
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Old 10-27-2020, 06:47 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aviator View Post
That is an excellent question and an interesting theme to bring up. Not being the religious type I will try my best to give you my take on the subject:

1- The Kingdom of Heaven represents all nations, not just one. To have the flag of one country distracts from the message we are all God's children.


Then why does the Vatican have it's own flag?

2- The flag of one country might make someone from a different country feel unwelcomed.

No, not really, embassies fly their nations flags and people still flock to the US embassy all the time.

3- The flag possibly promotes the love of country more than the love of God, thus possibly making the flag an idol that we worship.

Why should God be the only thing we are allowed to love?
Plus 1 for all aviator is saying.
To ad every country can have their own flag in their countries places of worship. If someone from another country does not like the displayed flag of that country in the countries house of worship? Get out.
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Old 10-28-2020, 05:35 AM   #6
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I can see how it could swing either way.

If a nation is "under God" I have no problem with a flag being displayed as it isn't an idol but a symbol of the nation that is under God's authority, governance, protection & blessing. We are told "righteousness exalts a nation" Prov 14:34 so why not have a symbol of the nation? Also we are told to "pray for those in authority" 1 Tim 2:2 so again, why not have a symbol for that & those we pray for?

On the other hand, the krauts had swastika flags hanging in churches in hitler's day & "Gott Mit Uns" on their belt buckles. They certainly had things out of order.

I love my country & my flag & have no problems flying it in church but in my heart Christ will always come first & if that is understood I cant see where there would ever be an issue.
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Old 11-06-2020, 08:07 PM   #7
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Interesting take

https://www.cfaith.com/index.php/blo...-american-flag
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Old 11-07-2020, 07:43 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aviator View Post
3- The flag possibly promotes the love of country more than the love of God, thus possibly making the flag an idol that we worship.

Why should God be the only thing we are allowed to love?
OK, wow.

Your first 2 points were strong. But critics would argue that they were secular reasons based on earthly logic.

But on your 3rd point, you really knocked it out of the park!!! Yes, we are told to love God. But we're also told to honor our parents, love our spouses, love our neighbors ... etc.

These are strong reasons NOT based on secular culture, but on Biblical standards. Thus proving that it is fact OK to love other things besides God. Obviously, God should always come first based on Biblical teachings, but Scripture also gives us many samples of "secondary" love.

Awesome answer and Thank You for that!!!
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Old 11-07-2020, 07:50 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 9teen11 View Post
I can see how it could swing either way.

If a nation is "under God" I have no problem with a flag being displayed as it isn't an idol but a symbol of the nation that is under God's authority, governance, protection & blessing. We are told "righteousness exalts a nation" Prov 14:34 so why not have a symbol of the nation? Also we are told to "pray for those in authority" 1 Tim 2:2 so again, why not have a symbol for that & those we pray for?

On the other hand, the krauts had swastika flags hanging in churches in hitler's day & "Gott Mit Uns" on their belt buckles. They certainly had things out of order.

I love my country & my flag & have no problems flying it in church but in my heart Christ will always come first & if that is understood I cant see where there would ever be an issue.
Solid answer as well my Friend.

Obviously there is a balance to things and when there is a balance, the scales can be easily tipped in one direction or the other when priorities are not observed. After many conversations with you (which has been way too long since we've had one) I know your priorities are solid.

God Bless You Mate.
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Old 11-07-2020, 07:58 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 44044 View Post
Having our flag in the church recognizes

that our country protects our right to

Freedom of Religion...
Quote:
Originally Posted by RaySendero View Post
In God we Trust
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Originally Posted by 4thIDvet View Post
Plus 1 for all aviator is saying.
To ad every country can have their own flag in their countries places of worship. If someone from another country does not like the displayed flag of that country in the countries house of worship? Get out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boris View Post
The rest of you all pretty much fits into the same category and that's based on a love of patriotism, which I totally understand. Mainly because I have that same love of patriotism. The link that Boris shared does a great job of expanding on all the points that you all mentioned.

Thanks for sharing.
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Old 11-07-2020, 08:05 AM   #11
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OK, now for my take.

Obviously, I have no problem with the flag flying in the Church as long as priorities are observed that God is always first. I believe based on the founding of our country that the flag is highly appropriate as we started a nation where one (of the many) reasons was religious freedom. The Christian flag represents God. The United States flag represents the freedom to worship God without fear or persecution.

What was shocking to me was I was in the minority with my opinion. I guess I really should not be shocked as the UMC has been growing into a very liberal denomination. But I guess I was partly blinded by the tradition of the "Good Ol' Days" of what things were in the days of John Wesley.

I often wonder what his reaction would be if he could see what things have become.

Thanks for the reactions. We'll see what kind of grade I get.
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Old 11-30-2020, 04:31 PM   #12
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Interestingly, the Union Flag of Great Britain (commonly called the ‘Union Jack’) comprises three crosses...the large red cross of St. George (England), the white saltire on blue ground of St. Andrew (Scotland), and the red saltire on white ground of St. Patrick (Ireland).

The cross of St. George is the one represented on images of the Crusaders of yore and, of course, is also the basis for the emblem of the Church of England, the state church, and the Episcopal Church in the U.S.
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Old 12-02-2020, 04:55 PM   #13
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For me, the Flag represents the men (and women) who made the ultimate sacrifice so I could go to church.

"It's just a flag, a piece of cloth!"

No. It is the symbol of the nation, founded upon God and His Law. It is the symbol that people gave their lives under - for us.

As Jesus gave his life for all mankind, so did our warriors give their lives for all our nation. When I pledge allegiance to the flag, I am pledging to defend those people's sacrifice. I am not pledging to a politician. I am not pledging to any bureaucrat. I am not even pledging to the cloth, itself, but to the Republic for which it stands, one nation, under God.

Have a flag in church? Yes, because all those who gave their lives under that flag have the right to be in church, too.

As for the Christian flag? I have no opinion on that one that can be taken as favorable. I know you say it represents God, but the whole world represents God, and the people are in God's Name gathered together for church fellowship.

When I was a kid and in a Baptist church school for a year, I refused to pledge allegiance to anything but the American flag, and only worship God. To pledge allegiance to more than one flag, to me, is the same as trying to serve many masters - or worship more than one god.

If someone purposefully desecrates a flag in my presence, it is my heartfelt belief toward the flag that will probably cause me to make the evening news....
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