AK-47 Copied from M-1 Garand?

5knives · 09-01-2006, 10:28 PM

Yup!

Lot of people have said so for years including me. But no ones ever going to quote me as knowing anything. So here's a nice concise explanation from Wikipedia:

Design concept

Despite circumstantial evidence, Mikhail Kalashnikov denies that his rifle was based on the German assault rifle. It is best described as a hybrid of several previous innovations. To support his position, the AK-47 owes more to the M1 Garand Rifle than any German design.

The double locking lugs, unlocking raceway, and trigger mechanism are clearly derived from the earlier American design.

This is not surprising as millions of Garand rifles had operated reliably in combat around the globe.

Though mechanically similar to the Garand, the AK-47 borrows its cartridge concept, weapon layout, gas system, and construction methods from the StG44. Further, the safety is surprisingly similar to the Browning designed Remington Model 8 rifle.

The genius in the design of the Kalashnikov rifle is in the simplification of those contributing designs and adaptation to mass production. The AK-47 can be seen as a fusion of the best that the M1 Garand offered combined with the best aspects of the StG44 made by the best processes available in the Soviet Union at the time.

The operating mechanism of the Kalashnikov family of weapons is basically very similar to that of the US M1 and M14 rifles and M1/M2 carbines. In fact, as is often the case in a successful weapon design, there is little new about the individual elements of Kalashnikov’s design; the inventor’s accomplishment was in the recombination of known elements into a compact, reliable and durable package. —Ed Ezell

How 'bout that!

Oh yeah, cartridge wasn't copied from the Germans either seems like the Germans may have copied earlier Russian developement if anything. But developement on both went back well before WWII.

Regards,

Preacher · 09-01-2006, 10:31 PM

As much as I love my AK's, there are in no way shape nor form even close in comparison to the M1.

NCshooter26 · 09-01-2006, 10:54 PM

yep, I've heard this before, and it makes sense, especially with it's rotating bolt. However, there's just too many similarites in the design of the AK that coincides with the German stg to deny it.

Gus · 09-01-2006, 11:01 PM

I've always thought it was from the Germans.

5knives · 09-01-2006, 11:28 PM

Check out yourAK FCG, clearly Garand. Although Garand "borrowed" also as the man said all successful designs incorporate proven elements from prior designs.

Original Garand had a ten round box magazine (had to go, interfered with the manual of arms), a larger gas cylinder (had to be reduced so 1917 bayonets wouldl fit) and one other change I forget. The original Garand deign was your basic M-14.

Several advantages to gas system being over the barrel, not original with the STG either, some Russian prototypes built in the '20's used it. But the STG version was the best design and Kalashnakov has admitted being inspired by it. Hence the AK looks more like the STG, but the aforementioned internals are Garand in origin.

Wanna hear some outright heresy.

I trust my VEPR .308 as much or more as any Garand I've ever used or owned, and except for tuned NM versions it's just as accurate (and every bit as heavy).

Won't ever argue but what the M-1 was the best club disguised as a militery rifle ever made, that stock is STOUT!

I lived with Garands for several years, clearly the best battle rifle of WWII and the following 10 years or so, FN-FL was a better idea so was M-14 (without FA), and others followed. I'd always take a Garand over a MacNamara Special, but they were not and are not perfect, they had their quirks and problems too.

Dont forget the Lubri-plate. Don't tighten the gas cylinder screw "too tight". "Watch your thumb". To name a few.

You may all proceed to gang up and stone me now. The line forms on my left.

Regards,

Gus · 09-01-2006, 11:43 PM

I won't throw any stones 5knives everyone has an opinion on that subject. I've heard the M1 Garand suggestion before and see the similarity but the overall appearance is very similar to the German stg44. Also the russians IMO were always better at reverse engineering someone else's design then coming up with anything original.

5knives · 09-02-2006, 02:20 AM

Not disagreeing GusB, the point is every design I can think of is built on something earlier.

Sam Colt didn't invent the revolver, Col Ferguson did, years earlier, and he got his ideas from someone else too.

AK looks like an AK because of the Gas Operating system and the magazine configuration and they both were designed to get maximum mileage out the sheet metaal fabrication tecgnology of their time (same time).

If it were designed today, with cuirrent U.S mfg. methods, it would look a lot more like an M-16 or maybe some kind of Glock than an STG.

Well, just MHO, anyhow lots of room for differing opinions.

Can be a discussion without being an argument, least i hope it can!

Regards,

partssman · 09-02-2006, 07:39 AM

5K, you bring something to the table, I've never seen before or heard before.

I have both rifles and never thought about it.

y'all more learned than I please continue with the facts. This is interesting....just my 2 cents mind you

Pogo · 09-02-2006, 10:42 AM

5Knives, I've both thought that and read that for quite a while. The biggest difference is the AK is stamped out of tin whereas the M1 Garand was Forged and then machined.

Kalishnikov didn't "invent" anything. He simply developed a lot less expensive method of fabricating the firearm designed by Garand. I'm talking about the internals and how it works, not it's outside appearance.

Gus · 09-02-2006, 11:12 AM

Another item of discussion early Colt revolvers (cap and ball) I know if I lived back then I would prefer the 1858 Remington revolver IMO it's a much better designed and accurate firearm. I've said many times in discussions that if the Texas Rangers hadn't contracted with Colt that company would have went belly up ... guess I'm just not a Colt fan although to do have a 1860 Colt Navy replica POS IMO.

I agree with both you and pogo on gun manufactures copying and improving on someone else's design ... the end result is generally a damn good firearm.

Raven · 09-02-2006, 11:26 AM

JMHO but the svt38 looks more like the Garand, Could the ak be derived from the svt40???

Pogo · 09-02-2006, 11:42 AM

Quote:

Another item of discussion early Colt revolvers (cap and ball) I know if I lived back then I would prefer the 1858 Remington revolver IMO it's a much better designed and accurate firearm. I've said many times in discussions that if the Texas Rangers hadn't contracted with Colt that company would have went belly up ... guess I'm just not a Colt fan although to do have a 1860 Colt Navy replica POS IMO.

Gus, no doubt about it. The 1858 Remington was a much better sidearm than the Colt. Mine is as accurate as a modern firearm up to about 200' as well. Not to mention a lot more knock down capability than a 9mm Luger cartridge.

5knives · 09-02-2006, 12:09 PM

Thanks for the kind words Mike, but please don't accept anything I or anyone else says as actual fact without questioning it. I have a bad habit of saying things too firmly and often what sounds like a statement of fact is just meant as an opinion, a "maybe" or a "could be". That's gotten me in trouble more than once.

Bad habit, but I'm working on it.

Besides, I know you NC guys and your trick of lulling the damnyankee into a false sense of security, and then pouncing on him when he least suspects it.

GusB makes a valid point about the Russians being noted for copying and reverse engineering. That seems to be a major characteristic of controlled societies. Japan, USSR, and others, creativity is suspect and not especially rewarded. The Roman's might be an exception, they didn't invent much of anything and they didn't have as rigidly controlled a society as we might think, but they were excellent at at developing and putting other peoples discoveries to work.

the Turks and others during "The Flowering of Islam."

Someone once said that totalitarian regimes tend to have very effective weapons systems, because they encourage refinement of known, working methods and designs and discourage innovation. That seems to me to be true.

Some interesting if true factoids presented here for the sheer hell of it;

In the entire 20th Century, the Japanese had exactly two new and creative inventions, The Yagi Antenna (the TV Antenna that looks like a horizontal ladder) invented by Dr. Yagi in 1936 as a RADAR antenna. and in the '80's, the little retractable sleeve for mechanical pencils that keeps fine lead from breaking to easily. Everything else is just a refinement of someone else's invention. But they did make a few weird little blow FORWARD semi auto pistols in the '20's that I never have been able to positively figure out where they got the idea from. Cute little bugger and looks like a better effort than the Nambu was.

Can't remember his name but there was a KGB Col who defected to the west back in the late '70's or early '80's. Once during his debriefing (which went on for years) he was asked why the Russians made such odd production runs of their missiles, and other advanced weapons equipment. 123 of this type, 207 of that type and only 82 of another.

He laughed and said it was because they could only get that number of necessary IBM computer chips and boards routed through Switzerland and South Africa. Heard a fellow say once that when it came to Russian guidance systems, you might need to know Russian to get the covers off but after that all you needed was English or Japanese.

Anyhow, I've always been interested in the History of Technology and Invention and have thought that weapons development was a reasonable way to look into it. Always fun to dig into something and discover that what I "know about it" just plain isn't the way it was.

Like the average guy today who "knows" that everyone in "The Old West" carried a Colt Peacemaker and a Winchester, Henry or a Sharps Rifle, except Gamblers and Prostitutes who all had Remington .41 RF Derringers.

Anyhow, just some stuff to discus if anyone feels like it!

Regards,

Gus · 09-02-2006, 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pogo

Gus, no doubt about it. The 1858 Remington was a much better sidearm than the Colt. Mine is as accurate as a modern firearm up to about 200' as well. Not to mention a lot more knock down capability than a 9mm Luger cartridge.

That's the dude pogo ... I have one I built (brass frame) ... probably doesn't look as nice as yours but it's a hell of a shooter ... IMO shoots better then many a modern pistol I've shot.

Gus · 09-02-2006, 12:43 PM

5knives

Just like you I enjoy reading differing opinions on a subject like this ... even an old fart like myself can learn more about anything or any subject. I always thought that was why Americans are ass kickers ... we have the freedom to openly discuss and therefore improve the development of anything.

09-01-2006, 10:28 PM	#1
5knives KaBoom Kontrol Modulator Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Colorado, Western Slope Posts: 16,229	AK-47 Copied from M-1 Garand? Yup! Lot of people have said so for years including me. But no ones ever going to quote me as knowing anything. So here's a nice concise explanation from Wikipedia: Design concept Despite circumstantial evidence, Mikhail Kalashnikov denies that his rifle was based on the German assault rifle. It is best described as a hybrid of several previous innovations. To support his position, the AK-47 owes more to the M1 Garand Rifle than any German design. The double locking lugs, unlocking raceway, and trigger mechanism are clearly derived from the earlier American design. This is not surprising as millions of Garand rifles had operated reliably in combat around the globe. Though mechanically similar to the Garand, the AK-47 borrows its cartridge concept, weapon layout, gas system, and construction methods from the StG44. Further, the safety is surprisingly similar to the Browning designed Remington Model 8 rifle. The genius in the design of the Kalashnikov rifle is in the simplification of those contributing designs and adaptation to mass production. The AK-47 can be seen as a fusion of the best that the M1 Garand offered combined with the best aspects of the StG44 made by the best processes available in the Soviet Union at the time. The operating mechanism of the Kalashnikov family of weapons is basically very similar to that of the US M1 and M14 rifles and M1/M2 carbines. In fact, as is often the case in a successful weapon design, there is little new about the individual elements of Kalashnikov’s design; the inventor’s accomplishment was in the recombination of known elements into a compact, reliable and durable package. —Ed Ezell How 'bout that! Oh yeah, cartridge wasn't copied from the Germans either seems like the Germans may have copied earlier Russian developement if anything. But developement on both went back well before WWII. Regards,

09-01-2006, 10:31 PM	#2
Preacher Chaplain/Moderator Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: West Virginia Posts: 11,321	As much as I love my AK's, there are in no way shape nor form even close in comparison to the M1. __________________ You and I have a rendezvous with destiny. We will preserve for our children this, the last best hope of man on earth, or we will sentence them to take the first step into a thousand years of darkness. If we fail, at least let our children and our children's children say of us we justified our brief moment here. We did all that could be done. Ronald Reagan - 1964 ------------------------------------- Bunker Member #4.

09-01-2006, 10:54 PM	#3
NCshooter26 Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: NC Posts: 2,672	yep, I've heard this before, and it makes sense, especially with it's rotating bolt. However, there's just too many similarites in the design of the AK that coincides with the German stg to deny it. __________________ "I'd rather hunt with Dick Cheney than ride with Ted Kennedy."

09-02-2006, 07:39 AM	#8
partssman Redneck Moderator Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Reedy Creek, NC Posts: 9,140	5K, you bring something to the table, I've never seen before or heard before. I have both rifles and never thought about it. y'all more learned than I please continue with the facts. This is interesting....just my 2 cents mind you __________________ When Injustice Becomes Law....Rebellion Becomes Duty "If you're not shootin', you should be loadin'. If you're not loadin', you should be movin', if you're not movin', someone's gonna cut your head off and put it on a stick." - Clint Smith, Director of Thunder Ranch

09-02-2006, 10:42 AM	#9
Pogo Mystic Knight of the Sea Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: The Great Swamp Posts: 81,980	5Knives, I've both thought that and read that for quite a while. The biggest difference is the AK is stamped out of tin whereas the M1 Garand was Forged and then machined. Kalishnikov didn't "invent" anything. He simply developed a lot less expensive method of fabricating the firearm designed by Garand. I'm talking about the internals and how it works, not it's outside appearance. __________________ .................................................. ....................................… *We have met the enemy, and he is us!*

09-01-2006, 11:01 PM	#4
Gus Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Arizona Posts: 66,849	I've always thought it was from the Germans.

09-01-2006, 11:28 PM	#5
5knives KaBoom Kontrol Modulator Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Colorado, Western Slope Posts: 16,229	Check out yourAK FCG, clearly Garand. Although Garand "borrowed" also as the man said all successful designs incorporate proven elements from prior designs. Original Garand had a ten round box magazine (had to go, interfered with the manual of arms), a larger gas cylinder (had to be reduced so 1917 bayonets wouldl fit) and one other change I forget. The original Garand deign was your basic M-14. Several advantages to gas system being over the barrel, not original with the STG either, some Russian prototypes built in the '20's used it. But the STG version was the best design and Kalashnakov has admitted being inspired by it. Hence the AK looks more like the STG, but the aforementioned internals are Garand in origin. Wanna hear some outright heresy. I trust my VEPR .308 as much or more as any Garand I've ever used or owned, and except for tuned NM versions it's just as accurate (and every bit as heavy). Won't ever argue but what the M-1 was the best club disguised as a militery rifle ever made, that stock is STOUT! I lived with Garands for several years, clearly the best battle rifle of WWII and the following 10 years or so, FN-FL was a better idea so was M-14 (without FA), and others followed. I'd always take a Garand over a MacNamara Special, but they were not and are not perfect, they had their quirks and problems too. Dont forget the Lubri-plate. Don't tighten the gas cylinder screw "too tight". "Watch your thumb". To name a few. You may all proceed to gang up and stone me now. The line forms on my left. Regards,

09-01-2006, 11:43 PM	#6
Gus Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Arizona Posts: 66,849	I won't throw any stones 5knives everyone has an opinion on that subject. I've heard the M1 Garand suggestion before and see the similarity but the overall appearance is very similar to the German stg44. Also the russians IMO were always better at reverse engineering someone else's design then coming up with anything original.

09-02-2006, 02:20 AM	#7
5knives KaBoom Kontrol Modulator Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Colorado, Western Slope Posts: 16,229	Not disagreeing GusB, the point is every design I can think of is built on something earlier. Sam Colt didn't invent the revolver, Col Ferguson did, years earlier, and he got his ideas from someone else too. AK looks like an AK because of the Gas Operating system and the magazine configuration and they both were designed to get maximum mileage out the sheet metaal fabrication tecgnology of their time (same time). If it were designed today, with cuirrent U.S mfg. methods, it would look a lot more like an M-16 or maybe some kind of Glock than an STG. Well, just MHO, anyhow lots of room for differing opinions. Can be a discussion without being an argument, least i hope it can! Regards,

09-02-2006, 11:12 AM	#10
Gus Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Arizona Posts: 66,849	Another item of discussion early Colt revolvers (cap and ball) I know if I lived back then I would prefer the 1858 Remington revolver IMO it's a much better designed and accurate firearm. I've said many times in discussions that if the Texas Rangers hadn't contracted with Colt that company would have went belly up ... guess I'm just not a Colt fan although to do have a 1860 Colt Navy replica POS IMO. I agree with both you and pogo on gun manufactures copying and improving on someone else's design ... the end result is generally a damn good firearm.

09-02-2006, 11:26 AM	#11
Raven Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: The Eastern Panhandle of West by God Virginia Posts: 862	JMHO but the svt38 looks more like the Garand, Could the ak be derived from the svt40???

09-02-2006, 12:09 PM	#13
5knives KaBoom Kontrol Modulator Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Colorado, Western Slope Posts: 16,229	Thanks for the kind words Mike, but please don't accept anything I or anyone else says as actual fact without questioning it. I have a bad habit of saying things too firmly and often what sounds like a statement of fact is just meant as an opinion, a "maybe" or a "could be". That's gotten me in trouble more than once. Bad habit, but I'm working on it. Besides, I know you NC guys and your trick of lulling the damnyankee into a false sense of security, and then pouncing on him when he least suspects it. GusB makes a valid point about the Russians being noted for copying and reverse engineering. That seems to be a major characteristic of controlled societies. Japan, USSR, and others, creativity is suspect and not especially rewarded. The Roman's might be an exception, they didn't invent much of anything and they didn't have as rigidly controlled a society as we might think, but they were excellent at at developing and putting other peoples discoveries to work. the Turks and others during "The Flowering of Islam." Someone once said that totalitarian regimes tend to have very effective weapons systems, because they encourage refinement of known, working methods and designs and discourage innovation. That seems to me to be true. Some interesting if true factoids presented here for the sheer hell of it; In the entire 20th Century, the Japanese had exactly two new and creative inventions, The Yagi Antenna (the TV Antenna that looks like a horizontal ladder) invented by Dr. Yagi in 1936 as a RADAR antenna. and in the '80's, the little retractable sleeve for mechanical pencils that keeps fine lead from breaking to easily. Everything else is just a refinement of someone else's invention. But they did make a few weird little blow FORWARD semi auto pistols in the '20's that I never have been able to positively figure out where they got the idea from. Cute little bugger and looks like a better effort than the Nambu was. Can't remember his name but there was a KGB Col who defected to the west back in the late '70's or early '80's. Once during his debriefing (which went on for years) he was asked why the Russians made such odd production runs of their missiles, and other advanced weapons equipment. 123 of this type, 207 of that type and only 82 of another. He laughed and said it was because they could only get that number of necessary IBM computer chips and boards routed through Switzerland and South Africa. Heard a fellow say once that when it came to Russian guidance systems, you might need to know Russian to get the covers off but after that all you needed was English or Japanese. Anyhow, I've always been interested in the History of Technology and Invention and have thought that weapons development was a reasonable way to look into it. Always fun to dig into something and discover that what I "know about it" just plain isn't the way it was. Like the average guy today who "knows" that everyone in "The Old West" carried a Colt Peacemaker and a Winchester, Henry or a Sharps Rifle, except Gamblers and Prostitutes who all had Remington .41 RF Derringers. Anyhow, just some stuff to discus if anyone feels like it! Regards,

09-02-2006, 12:43 PM	#15
Gus Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Arizona Posts: 66,849	5knives Just like you I enjoy reading differing opinions on a subject like this ... even an old fart like myself can learn more about anything or any subject. I always thought that was why Americans are ass kickers ... we have the freedom to openly discuss and therefore improve the development of anything.