Dangerous pressure situation ??

Moon · 01-21-2009, 04:52 PM

I had a conversation with a guy the other day at the gun-shop (you know how that goes), talking about reloading 30-caliber magnum loads. Anyway, I know this guy pretty well, and he knows how I load my .22-250 Rem. The situation is as such: The throat depth of the rifle is 2.454". I seat the bullets at 2.486", then crimp the shit out of 'em with a Lee factory crimp collet die. I won't post the grains of H380, but it's not over the max charge as specified in the good book.

He told me to NEVER do this with a .30-caliber magnum (.300 Weatherby, .30-378 Weatherby, etc etc), because it would spike the pressures and could cause a serious problem in the rifle when it is fired. He recommended to back it off the lands by about .03", which I understand is where most people START from. Have any of you heard this ?? Has someone sent ol' Moon on a snipe-hunt ?

I've fired hundreds and hundreds of rounds through my .22-250, and it still shoots like the day I got it. No sign of anything wrong. I don't really know, but figured there were probably a few veteran reloaders in here that would.

10 Bears · 01-21-2009, 05:55 PM

Well, Moon, I've sent thousands of rounds of .22-250 after critters.
I've crimped them over the ogive, and crimped at less than 1/4" seating.
That long extrusion allways caught the riflings too.
But, with a heavy crimp it allways extracted too.
I had a 24X scope and once I found a load, that I kept, It didn't seem to matter where or how the bullet was crimped.

So I seated in a manner that just kept them out of the riflings.
Just a good crimp too.
'Bout all I can tell ya Moon.

Pogo · 01-21-2009, 08:29 PM

You will see warning signs on the spent brass if the pressures are exceeding maximum allowable for a given cartridge.

Although I never crimp my cartridges any more than necessary. Over crimping shortens the life of the brass. And over crimping can cause some loss of accuracy.

Moon · 01-21-2009, 09:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pogo

Although I never crimp my cartridges any more than necessary. Over crimping shortens the life of the brass. And over crimping can cause some loss of accuracy.

Um...yeah, about that.... I don't know exactly how or why... but I've actually GAINED accuracy by over-crimping. As I mentioned before, I seat the bullets at 2.486". Which is .036 LONGER than the throat-depth of my rifle, then crimp the shit out of it with a Lee factory-crimp collet die. I've seated it at 2.450, and crimped the shit out of it, and I lose accuracy. I've also seated it at 2.486" with the recommended crimp, and no crimp at all. It's not as good. Why, exactly, I haven't a clue.

5knives · 01-21-2009, 09:58 PM

Well FWIW ...

Guess I'm like 10 bears, load cartridge out until it just barely marks rifling with the action closed. then back off 'just a hair". and use a 'good crimp' not too heavy. Then work up your loads, starting at the low end of published suggestions.

Just went through that with a friend shooting .204, all the 'Buzz' was you had to load them "over book', crimp heavier than hell and seat well back from rifling (forget the measure but it was too far back). Barrels were lasting about 1200 rounds before accuraccy fell off.

That way he couldn't get much under 1-1 1/4 inches out of his Ruger.

Switched to the 'old fashioned way', cut his powder down to mid book levels, used enough crimp to prevent set-back under recoil in a magazine and on a still cold day he'll put 5 or more rounds into a one hole group less than 1/2 " all day long.

That Ruger is a Number One, not generally considered tack drivers.

BTW, he uses the same load in a savage (just barely fits in magazine, and gets not quite as good a group. Right over 5/8", thinks he might be loading just a hair long for the Savage but doesn't want to make up seperate loads for each rifle.

The guy that sold him the Ruger "because it just wasn't accurate enough' was very upset!

We brightened his day by sharing the "secret".

Anyhow, if that's how you got to the load your at now, then that's how it works for your particular rifle, if not, you might want to try it as an experiment.

OTT, Pogo's right, you SHOULD be able to detect pressure signs well before you hit a danger point, and heavy crimping will cost you case life.

Good Luck!

Regards,

10 Bears · 01-21-2009, 10:01 PM

I've heard theory about "Freebore Jump" meaning that the bullet has to travel before it encounters the riflings.
Possibly, someone, has performed a better analysis than myself.
After all, I was just a shooter/reloader.

I didn't try to stretch my .22-250 range beyond 300 yards.
As long as I paid attention to the SAMMI pressure ratings, that rifle performed as expected.
BTW, the 24X was on a Sako, but I had the same results from a Rem. 700 series with a 10X scope.

Moon · 01-21-2009, 10:06 PM

5Knives: That's the way I done it too. I usually start at mid-book levels. Halfway between starting load and max load. Most of the time, the velocity is just right if you're in the middle of the road, or at least that's what I've found to be true.

When I graduated from Texas Tech, I bought my dad a Remington Model 700 VLS, just like mine, but his has a laminate stock. His rifle LOVES middle-of-the-road Varget at .030" under the lands, and the crimp doesn't seem to matter. Textbook, right ?? Mine can't stand that. It wants 2.486", a heavy as hell crimp, with a middle-of-the-road amount of H380. Then, and only then, will you get inch-groups at 300y from my 700 VS.

10 Bears · 01-21-2009, 10:12 PM

Moon, that's what reloading is all about!
Finding that sweet spot in YOUR rifle!

Write down your load, OAL, Bullet weight and bullet manufacturer.
You have a winner!

Moon · 01-21-2009, 10:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 10 Bears

Moon, that's what reloading is all about!
Finding that sweet spot in YOUR rifle!

Write down your load, OAL, Bullet weight and bullet manufacturer.
You have a winner!

Funny thing. I discovered ALL of this by accident. At first, I thought my OAL was like 2.500" because I used a neck-sized case instead of a full-length sized case when I checked the throat depth. The crimp was too hard, and I never even knew it, because I didn't understand the directions completely before I started (whoopsie). Two key factors in this rifle's accuracy, discovered by complete accident.

You fellers don't suppose this situation will wear my barrel out do you ? I've sent at least 2k rounds down the barrel since I measured it and the throat depth hasn't gotten any deeper.

5knives · 01-21-2009, 10:48 PM

Moon,

If your in the middle with H-380 you should have no undue barrel wear (as in 10,000 rounds plus).

The group of .204 'experts' I mentioned, that are burning up barrels were loading prox. 10% OVER MAXIMUM loads highly compressed!

Sooner or later there are going to be some KA-BOOMS.

(Personal Opinion, cases 90-99% full, usually a good idea, compressed NEVER! Change powders instead!)

Sites like theirs are one of the reasons I favor our policy of not listing actual powder charges.

Very dangerous and guaranteed to be incredibly hard on barrels and actions.

Sounds like you've done extremely well, I wouldn't worry. If it works and it aint broke ... don't 'FIX' it!

For accuraccy, each firearm is a law unto itself.

Regards,

Bobrob · 01-22-2009, 09:52 AM

Why I like this site so much, not a lot of BS here. I have learned through the years, reloading is exactly like all the manuals say; start low and tune your load based on accuracy, being aware of pressures all the way up. Then never switch rifles or introduce other variables with out backing off and working up again.

A lot of the gun shops and gun forums, come complete with "experts" that get all self righteous about what you should or should not be doing, themselves having 6 months experience.

10 Bears · 01-22-2009, 10:22 AM

I have, at least, 40 years of experience and still subscribe to the conservative loading proceedures.
Aside from possible damage to the firearm, even when brass was, comparativley, inexpensive, I still insisted on keeping pressures either low or moderate.
I've used a three corner file to make a very small notch, on my rimmed cases, each notch indicating having been reloaded once.
Some of them were loaded 25 and 30 times.
Notched entirely around the rim.

In this day of "materiel conservatism" we would all do well to observe the rules.

01-21-2009, 04:52 PM	#1
Moon IncogNegro Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 5,825	Dangerous pressure situation ?? I had a conversation with a guy the other day at the gun-shop (you know how that goes), talking about reloading 30-caliber magnum loads. Anyway, I know this guy pretty well, and he knows how I load my .22-250 Rem. The situation is as such: The throat depth of the rifle is 2.454". I seat the bullets at 2.486", then crimp the shit out of 'em with a Lee factory crimp collet die. I won't post the grains of H380, but it's not over the max charge as specified in the good book. He told me to NEVER do this with a .30-caliber magnum (.300 Weatherby, .30-378 Weatherby, etc etc), because it would spike the pressures and could cause a serious problem in the rifle when it is fired. He recommended to back it off the lands by about .03", which I understand is where most people START from. Have any of you heard this ?? Has someone sent ol' Moon on a snipe-hunt ? I've fired hundreds and hundreds of rounds through my .22-250, and it still shoots like the day I got it. No sign of anything wrong. I don't really know, but figured there were probably a few veteran reloaders in here that would. __________________ "Thou shalt not be a son-of-a-bitch". Magnus392, from Rules of Chuck 00011

01-21-2009, 08:29 PM	#3
Pogo Mystic Knight of the Sea Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: The Great Swamp Posts: 81,967	You will see warning signs on the spent brass if the pressures are exceeding maximum allowable for a given cartridge. Although I never crimp my cartridges any more than necessary. Over crimping shortens the life of the brass. And over crimping can cause some loss of accuracy. __________________ .................................................. ....................................… *We have met the enemy, and he is us!*

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

01-21-2009, 05:55 PM	#2
10 Bears Moderator Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: E-Da-How Posts: 137,846	Well, Moon, I've sent thousands of rounds of .22-250 after critters. I've crimped them over the ogive, and crimped at less than 1/4" seating. That long extrusion allways caught the riflings too. But, with a heavy crimp it allways extracted too. I had a 24X scope and once I found a load, that I kept, It didn't seem to matter where or how the bullet was crimped. So I seated in a manner that just kept them out of the riflings. Just a good crimp too. 'Bout all I can tell ya Moon.

01-21-2009, 09:58 PM	#5
5knives KaBoom Kontrol Modulator Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Colorado, Western Slope Posts: 16,229	Well FWIW ... Guess I'm like 10 bears, load cartridge out until it just barely marks rifling with the action closed. then back off 'just a hair". and use a 'good crimp' not too heavy. Then work up your loads, starting at the low end of published suggestions. Just went through that with a friend shooting .204, all the 'Buzz' was you had to load them "over book', crimp heavier than hell and seat well back from rifling (forget the measure but it was too far back). Barrels were lasting about 1200 rounds before accuraccy fell off. That way he couldn't get much under 1-1 1/4 inches out of his Ruger. Switched to the 'old fashioned way', cut his powder down to mid book levels, used enough crimp to prevent set-back under recoil in a magazine and on a still cold day he'll put 5 or more rounds into a one hole group less than 1/2 " all day long. That Ruger is a Number One, not generally considered tack drivers. BTW, he uses the same load in a savage (just barely fits in magazine, and gets not quite as good a group. Right over 5/8", thinks he might be loading just a hair long for the Savage but doesn't want to make up seperate loads for each rifle. The guy that sold him the Ruger "because it just wasn't accurate enough' was very upset! We brightened his day by sharing the "secret". Anyhow, if that's how you got to the load your at now, then that's how it works for your particular rifle, if not, you might want to try it as an experiment. OTT, Pogo's right, you SHOULD be able to detect pressure signs well before you hit a danger point, and heavy crimping will cost you case life. Good Luck! Regards,

01-21-2009, 10:01 PM	#6
10 Bears Moderator Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: E-Da-How Posts: 137,846	I've heard theory about "Freebore Jump" meaning that the bullet has to travel before it encounters the riflings. Possibly, someone, has performed a better analysis than myself. After all, I was just a shooter/reloader. I didn't try to stretch my .22-250 range beyond 300 yards. As long as I paid attention to the SAMMI pressure ratings, that rifle performed as expected. BTW, the 24X was on a Sako, but I had the same results from a Rem. 700 series with a 10X scope.

01-21-2009, 10:06 PM	#7
Moon IncogNegro Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 5,825	5Knives: That's the way I done it too. I usually start at mid-book levels. Halfway between starting load and max load. Most of the time, the velocity is just right if you're in the middle of the road, or at least that's what I've found to be true. When I graduated from Texas Tech, I bought my dad a Remington Model 700 VLS, just like mine, but his has a laminate stock. His rifle LOVES middle-of-the-road Varget at .030" under the lands, and the crimp doesn't seem to matter. Textbook, right ?? Mine can't stand that. It wants 2.486", a heavy as hell crimp, with a middle-of-the-road amount of H380. Then, and only then, will you get inch-groups at 300y from my 700 VS.

01-21-2009, 10:12 PM	#8
10 Bears Moderator Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: E-Da-How Posts: 137,846	Moon, that's what reloading is all about! Finding that sweet spot in YOUR rifle! Write down your load, OAL, Bullet weight and bullet manufacturer. You have a winner!

01-21-2009, 10:48 PM	#10
5knives KaBoom Kontrol Modulator Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Colorado, Western Slope Posts: 16,229	Moon, If your in the middle with H-380 you should have no undue barrel wear (as in 10,000 rounds plus). The group of .204 'experts' I mentioned, that are burning up barrels were loading prox. 10% OVER MAXIMUM loads highly compressed! Sooner or later there are going to be some KA-BOOMS. (Personal Opinion, cases 90-99% full, usually a good idea, compressed NEVER! Change powders instead!) Sites like theirs are one of the reasons I favor our policy of not listing actual powder charges. Very dangerous and guaranteed to be incredibly hard on barrels and actions. Sounds like you've done extremely well, I wouldn't worry. If it works and it aint broke ... don't 'FIX' it! For accuraccy, each firearm is a law unto itself. Regards,

01-22-2009, 09:52 AM	#11
Bobrob Cranky Old Guy Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: 350 miles E of Amarillo Posts: 68	Why I like this site so much, not a lot of BS here. I have learned through the years, reloading is exactly like all the manuals say; start low and tune your load based on accuracy, being aware of pressures all the way up. Then never switch rifles or introduce other variables with out backing off and working up again. A lot of the gun shops and gun forums, come complete with "experts" that get all self righteous about what you should or should not be doing, themselves having 6 months experience.

01-22-2009, 10:22 AM	#12
10 Bears Moderator Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: E-Da-How Posts: 137,846	I have, at least, 40 years of experience and still subscribe to the conservative loading proceedures. Aside from possible damage to the firearm, even when brass was, comparativley, inexpensive, I still insisted on keeping pressures either low or moderate. I've used a three corner file to make a very small notch, on my rimmed cases, each notch indicating having been reloaded once. Some of them were loaded 25 and 30 times. Notched entirely around the rim. In this day of "materiel conservatism" we would all do well to observe the rules.