As a godless heathen how do I believe what you say.

[GARANDNUT]

Originally Posted by bill3542

Seriously... I have no faith, I was brought up in a family that didn't do church.

I actually have read the bible a few times being a avid reader. The old testament is dull and boring, the new testament reads like a poorly written fiction fantasy novel.

You need to meditate on why you bothered to read the Bible “a few times”. You are right, scripture is boring, especially when you don’t understand it and even then it’s a drag. I guess my point is, a truly faithless person would not even give this topic a thought. Faith is not from us and a church can’t give you faith; it’s a gift granted by cooperation with free will. You are seeking for a reason. Again I see a special animus for Christ since you found the Old Testament boring but the new sci-fi. You are angry and you know it but you also know where the truth lies, and that makes you even more obstinate.

Everything I say I say in charity. I have been there and in some respects am still where you are.

[JD Miller]

Originally Posted by bill3542

Seriously... I have no faith, ...........

You dont have even have faith that the sun will come up in the morning?


faith

noun: faith

1.
complete trust or confidence in someone or something.
"this restores one's faith in politicians" (Ha Ha !)

Similar: trust, belief, confidence, conviction, credence, reliance

[bill3542]

Originally Posted by JD Miller

You dont have even have faith that the sun will come up in the morning?


faith

noun: faith

1.
complete trust or confidence in someone or something.
"this restores one's faith in politicians" (Ha Ha !)

Similar: trust, belief, confidence, conviction, credence, reliance

No faith in any religion... they are money whores.

[Preacher]

Originally Posted by bill3542

No faith in any religion... they are money whores.

What if I was to say that I have no faith in any white male because they are nothing more than elitist bigots?

After all, isn't that what the stereotype tells us?

I've been showing you a lot of patience in this thread, but I have got to push back a little bit on this. Yes, there are money whores in religion. I'll grant you that.

But that doesn't mean that all of us are that way.

Just like not all gun owners are deranged killers .....

[aviator]

Originally Posted by Preacher

Yes, there are money whores in religion. I'll grant you that.

In every religion and denomination thereof.

I can vouch for two ministers that I've known through the years. Neither one is out for the money, but it takes money to run a church no matter how small it is. Rent, utilities, maintenance, AV equipment, etc...things that didn't exist 2,000 years ago. Now, ministers with airplanes, Roll Royces, and 15 bedroom house on a mountain top are snake oil salesmen....did I hear someone say the pope?

Preacher, I've known you for a long time, I remember when you passed your last test and didn't have any white hair on your head yet and I know you have struggled to make it happen. And Nineteen11, the man is not only a pastor but a crusader in his own right, I've read a few things about him lately and he is doing an incredible job down under...and I also met him when he had hair on his head. Geez we're getting old.

If I'm going to take a preacher's word I'll listen to those two. By the way you can watch our own Preacher on-line on Sundays if he wants to send you a link.

[bill3542]

I appreciate the patience of those here, I read a lot of sci-fi, sci-fi military and ( what if or alternative history ) novels.

I've got around 680 books in my kindle fire and probably around 1000 paperback books so maybe that causes me to be skeptical of what I read or look at everything with a jaundiced eye.

I do understand that some of you are frustrated with me because I don't ( get it ). that's alright, maybe I'll never get it but thanks for the effort.

[Sanders]

Originally Posted by bill3542

I appreciate the patience of those here, I read a lot of sci-fi, sci-fi military and ( what if or alternative history ) novels.

I've got around 680 books in my kindle fire and probably around 1000 paperback books so maybe that causes me to be skeptical of what I read or look at everything with a jaundiced eye.

I do understand that some of you are frustrated with me because I don't ( get it ). that's alright, maybe I'll never get it but thanks for the effort.

Nobody can talk you in to the Kingdom of Heaven. Nobody can scare you in to it, either (Although some will certainly try).

It is a gift, freely given to those who seek it with a sincere heart. I believe your heart is sincere, or you would not be asking....

[Preacher]

Originally Posted by bill3542

I appreciate the patience of those here, I read a lot of sci-fi, sci-fi military and ( what if or alternative history ) novels.

I've got around 680 books in my kindle fire and probably around 1000 paperback books so maybe that causes me to be skeptical of what I read or look at everything with a jaundiced eye.

I do understand that some of you are frustrated with me because I don't ( get it ). that's alright, maybe I'll never get it but thanks for the effort.

Bill, I am not frustrated with your curiosity, nor will I ever be. I love talking to people like this. So please, ask away.

But I was a little frustrated being compared to a money whore.

I'll be the first to admit there is corruption and people living lavish lifestyles off the backs of innocent people. And I pray for their soul. But it is not so for everyone who is associated with religion.

Maybe it would help if I fully explained my situation. Even in my denomination, there are full-time pastors that make their living from the Church. This gives them the ability to serve their people without restrictions. If they need to go to the hospital, they can. If they need to preach a funeral, they can. If they need to drag a kid out of a drug-house, they can. But such dedication takes time. And it takes money to raise a family. If a Church can afford a full-time pastor to do these things, that's one thing.

But what about the Churches that can't afford a full-time salary? The answer, bi-vocational pastors.

Again, I'll be the first to admit there are many pastors who will walk by a Church who cannot afford a full-time salary. It doesn't make them bad people, because not everyone is capable of working double duty. But yet the smaller Churches still need to be served.

Enter the part-time bi-vocational pastor. The bi-vocational pastors doesn't need the income from the Church because they have an outside job for paying the bills. And while we agree to serve, it introduces a whole new world of challenges. Now, not only is your time divided between your job and your family, it is now divided between work, family and Church. You work more and you see your family less. All the while serving a congregation that cannot afford to pay you.

So let me talk about a typical weekend from my calendar. Saturday, I clocked in at my secular job at 5pm. I work in facilities, which means I spend a lot of time in the boiler room working in temps of 125*+ and wearing leather protective PPE to keep from getting burned. I work in patient care room when things get broke. I repair busted water lines. I do preventing maintenance in air handler units that are larger than your house (or at least larger than mine).

I do things like this for a solid twelve hours while I am on the clock. I clock out at 7am Sunday morning. I'm standing in the pulpit of my first Church (I serve more than one) at 9am and there's an hour drive from the hospital to my first Church. I finish my last Church around noon. At this point, I have had no sleep and I have spent no time with my family.

For the last month, I have been practicing for a live Nativity scene with another local Church. Practice starts at 4pm. It's an hour drive back home, and then another hour drive to make it back to the practice. So I stay at the Church and take care of some paperwork. I normally get home around 6pm after the practice. Last night we actually performed the show and I got home around 10pm.

All of which I did as a volunteer.

I could give you all the reasons I would put myself through all of this, but it boils down to making a difference. Many people came and watched last night and I'm sure that many went home and forgot all about it. But there's this one kid that comes every year and he talks about it for days and months. When I see the excitement in his eyes, it gives me the energy to press on even though I've not slept in over 24 hours at this point.

I know the Nativity comes only once a year, but getting home at 6 or 7p on Sunday's is a normal thing because people find me at the Church. People who are scared. People who need help. I know that I will never solve the world's problems all by myself, but if I can do something to make a difference in someone's life, then I'm willing to push myself to do it.

And yet every month I struggle to pay my bills because my wife's job has been affected by Covid.

But I'm OK with that because I love what I do and I trust that God will take care of me.

I know what I put myself through and it did sting a little when I came read that all religion is money whores. I know that you probably did not mean it as an insult and I probably should have overlooked it. But if it opens up a dialogue for us to talk things over, maybe it is a good thing.

I know that I am never going to convince you that all religion is good. It wouldn't even be fair to try, because I cannot even convince myself of that, as there is corruption in SOME religion. But maybe we could try convincing you that there is at least one person in religion that is not corrupted.

And if we have to take baby steps to get that to happen, I'm willing to take those steps with you.

[baboon]

I was taught as Americans we have religious freedom. Sad thing is if your freedom not believing in any of it, your worse then the goat fucking jihadist in the eyes of those who preach an all loving god!

[bill3542]

Originally Posted by Preacher

Bill, I am not frustrated with your curiosity, nor will I ever be. I love talking to people like this. So please, ask away.

But I was a little frustrated being compared to a money whore.

I'll be the first to admit there is corruption and people living lavish lifestyles off the backs of innocent people. And I pray for their soul. But it is not so for everyone who is associated with religion.

Maybe it would help if I fully explained my situation. Even in my denomination, there are full-time pastors that make their living from the Church. This gives them the ability to serve their people without restrictions. If they need to go to the hospital, they can. If they need to preach a funeral, they can. If they need to drag a kid out of a drug-house, they can. But such dedication takes time. And it takes money to raise a family. If a Church can afford a full-time pastor to do these things, that's one thing.

But what about the Churches that can't afford a full-time salary? The answer, bi-vocational pastors.

Again, I'll be the first to admit there are many pastors who will walk by a Church who cannot afford a full-time salary. It doesn't make them bad people, because not everyone is capable of working double duty. But yet the smaller Churches still need to be served.

Enter the part-time bi-vocational pastor. The bi-vocational pastors doesn't need the income from the Church because they have an outside job for paying the bills. And while we agree to serve, it introduces a whole new world of challenges. Now, not only is your time divided between your job and your family, it is now divided between work, family and Church. You work more and you see your family less. All the while serving a congregation that cannot afford to pay you.

So let me talk about a typical weekend from my calendar. Saturday, I clocked in at my secular job at 5pm. I work in facilities, which means I spend a lot of time in the boiler room working in temps of 125*+ and wearing leather protective PPE to keep from getting burned. I work in patient care room when things get broke. I repair busted water lines. I do preventing maintenance in air handler units that are larger than your house (or at least larger than mine).

I do things like this for a solid twelve hours while I am on the clock. I clock out at 7am Sunday morning. I'm standing in the pulpit of my first Church (I serve more than one) at 9am and there's an hour drive from the hospital to my first Church. I finish my last Church around noon. At this point, I have had no sleep and I have spent no time with my family.

For the last month, I have been practicing for a live Nativity scene with another local Church. Practice starts at 4pm. It's an hour drive back home, and then another hour drive to make it back to the practice. So I stay at the Church and take care of some paperwork. I normally get home around 6pm after the practice. Last night we actually performed the show and I got home around 10pm.

All of which I did as a volunteer.

I could give you all the reasons I would put myself through all of this, but it boils down to making a difference. Many people came and watched last night and I'm sure that many went home and forgot all about it. But there's this one kid that comes every year and he talks about it for days and months. When I see the excitement in his eyes, it gives me the energy to press on even though I've not slept in over 24 hours at this point.

I know the Nativity comes only once a year, but getting home at 6 or 7p on Sunday's is a normal thing because people find me at the Church. People who are scared. People who need help. I know that I will never solve the world's problems all by myself, but if I can do something to make a difference in someone's life, then I'm willing to push myself to do it.

And yet every month I struggle to pay my bills because my wife's job has been affected by Covid.

But I'm OK with that because I love what I do and I trust that God will take care of me.

I know what I put myself through and it did sting a little when I came read that all religion is money whores. I know that you probably did not mean it as an insult and I probably should have overlooked it. But if it opens up a dialogue for us to talk things over, maybe it is a good thing.

I know that I am never going to convince you that all religion is good. It wouldn't even be fair to try, because I cannot even convince myself of that, as there is corruption in SOME religion. But maybe we could try convincing you that there is at least one person in religion that is not corrupted.

And if we have to take baby steps to get that to happen, I'm willing to take those steps with you.

It was not my intention to compare you to a money whore, you come across as a good person who would help anyone.

We have a local Catholic church that's referred to as the ( rich people ) church where the suggested minimum donation is a 100 dollars a week and the churchgoers are some of the most worthless human beings on the face of the earth.

[Preacher]

Originally Posted by bill3542

It was not my intention to compare you to a money whore, you come across as a good person who would help anyone.

We have a local Catholic church that's referred to as the ( rich people ) church where the suggested minimum donation is a 100 dollars a week and the churchgoers are some of the most worthless human beings on the face of the earth.

I actually agree with you 100%.

Jesus taught us that 2 pennies given with a pure heart was greater than larger amounts given for attention.

And, as a pastor, some of the biggest hypocrites I have ever seen are the ones who never miss a Sunday.

So we actually agree on many things. But I force myself to stay focused on the positive, because I know the hypocrites do not represent the true Jesus that I serve.

[9teen11]

This is a good discussion and I applaud Dave’s stance and responses. I also greatly appreciate Aviator’s kind words towards both of us.

Dave is one of the most honourable blokes who has ever stood behind a pulpit, he is honest and true to the Faith, he is the real deal. I would trust him with my life and I don’t say that of many people.

Sanders made a comment I live by, “nobody can talk you into the Kingdom of Heaven”. That is a fact. The only thing I would add is that you can’t argue someone out of the Kingdom either.

Before I was I believer, I didn’t believe, simple as that. I identify absolutely with where Bill3542 is coming from. There was no way anyone could prove anything to me or make me understand. Let’s face it, Christ did miracles in front of people and they still didn’t believe. I don’t say that to be critical, just stating a fact as I was a closed book at one time too and could always counter an argument by highlighting the corruption and hypocrisy of the institution or by quoting some terrible injustice.

A bloke in town this week told me of a family he knew whose twin girls had been struck with a terminal brain disease and that was his proof that there was no God. He was hurt and angry and all I could tell him at the time was that I understood why he felt that way. He didn’t know I was a believer, he was just letting off steam.

Bible says that no one can come to Jesus or believe in Him unless they are drawn to Him by the Father (Jn 6:44). Christ in turn reveals the Father to the believer (Luke 10:22). The Holy Spirit (who resides within the believer (1 Cor 3:16) confirms to us that we are Gods children (Rom 8:16). That there is what the Bible calls being “born again” (Jn 3:3)

I experienced that about 40 years ago. I have faith and as a result, I believe. Bible says that even that faith doesn’t originate in me but is a gift from God Himself (Eph 2:8). That faith is my evidence (Heb 11:1) but evidence to me and me alone, not to anyone else.

This is what makes the difference between a believer and an unbeliever. Its not about winning an argument but having an experience, and that experience being initiated by God Himself. For this reason, I don’t argue but try to show respect to all on this topic remembering that I once was as they are and I fully appreciate and understand their position.

I see the injustice, the hypocrisy , tragedy and every other reason to reject the Christian message and belief in God but something of “imperishable seed” (1 Peter 1:23) came to life in me when I was “born again” (1 Peter 1:23) and now I find it easier to believe than not, a total reversal of my previous position.

I don’t care at all for the institutional expression of Christianity, I have seen way too much corruption. Regardless of what bad story you could tell me, I guarantee I could tell you a dozen or more much worse. Jesus told parables on that very subject and it was as corrupt as all get out in His day too. God will judge all of that on the other side of the grave where there will be no quarter for the crooks so I concern myself with what I can do and leave the rest for Him to sort out in the context of eternity.

I do, however, believe in every Christian’s responsibility to live up to the good name of Jesus and to “work out their own salvation with fear and trembling” (Phil 2:12-13) and not to give anyone reason to “blaspheme God because of their conduct”. (Rom 2:24).

You don’t have to be part of an institution to be part of the Kingdom but I can assure you that if I was in driving distance of Dave’s pulpit, he’d be seeing me on Sunday. Sorry for the long post.

[JD Miller]

Originally Posted by bill3542

Goya Foods, Bob Unanue
We have a local Catholic church .......................the churchgoers are some of the most worthless human beings on the face of the earth.

I have come to that same conclusion about many many catholic I have witnessed . And Catholic churches are scary, all the robe outfits and organ death music

Drunks and their daughters are whores

.

[bill3542]

Originally Posted by JD Miller

I have come to that same conclusion about many many catholic I have witnessed . Catholic churches are scary

Drunks and their daughters are whores

.

Some of the worst drunks I've ever met where catholic priests at wedding receptions... they make my skin crawl.

[bill3542]

I appreciate all those here who spoke up but at this time I cannot get what you see or have blind faith in something I see that was wrote to hold power over others.

I hate the Christmas holiday and everything it represents... just more money grubbers. They had one of those trees at work with cards on it for ( needy kids ) and some simple minded idiot bought 6 bicycles for these crotch goblins.

What a fool, these little animals will have them trashed in a week. Yes I'm a hard person with some interesting views. I don't have a problem with welfare if someone actually needs it but we've created a society of generational leeches that should be dropped into a industrial wood chipper.... including the children because that's the only way to stop it and no I don't have a problem with that.

Look at the muslim Koran, a fine example of fiction fantasy used to hold power of mostly illiterate savages that think sex with farm animals or little boys is ok.

The only use for it is toilet paper or lighting fires.