OVERPENETRATION - Page 2

Moon · 10-01-2007, 08:22 AM

Cobalt60 · 10-01-2007, 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 5knives

Good post and reference Mr. Cobalt60.

Whats this "Mr." crap? ::grinz::

Quote:

Originally Posted by 5knives

'Box o Truth' is an interesting and informative site.

But ...

You're correct.

Should have posted a "Your mileage may vary" caveat with the link as it's definitely not "scientific" testing. And I agree with your .30 carbine comments. I don't own one and, while they're all historical and I'm sure fun for plinking and such, I don't know if I'd rely on one even at short distances if I did. If I'm using a rifle, thats what I have my SKSs (or better yet, the L1A1) for. The link was just meant as a reference for the discussion on handgun use.

As far as the whole "over penetration" thing, I figure a lot depends on the situation and each person has to weigh the particulars to the best of their knowledge. Firearm type and what kind of ammo it likes, what the bad guy is usually dressed in, environment (i.e., what's behind the target)...all should be taken into consideration when weighing the options.

That being said, I keep HydroShocks in my Ruger semi-autos (.45 & 9mm) mainly because those two are what I keep handiest in the 'cropper's shack I live in at the moment. (Besides the 12 ga A-5.) I may be wrong, but I don't worry too much about over penetration with either. In my .357 SP-101 I keep JSPs (as it's usually what I carry and it's also handy at the house) and I like the idea of something "heavy and solid" that expands somewhat. Also been looking at some HBWCs loaded backwards (someone gave me 25 rounds like that) for the 101 but I've yet to test any. Heard they started tumbling after a bit so it may not be a desired round.

I'm by no means an expert on this. I've always been a proponent of mass on target, repeat as necessary. (Makes ya wonder about the 9mm, eh? LOL!) I know there's been incidences of a gremlin taking a few rounds and still being a threat. But I think they're the exception, and believe that only reinforces the need for practice in both shooting and reloading.

10 Bears · 10-01-2007, 11:42 AM

Quote:

Also been looking at some HBWCs loaded backwards (someone gave me 25 rounds like that) for the 101 but I've yet to test any. Heard they started tumbling after a bit so it may not be a desired round.

Used to use those all the time in my Rossi Carbine.
Evidence of them staying stabilized, under 50 yards was displayed in the massive wounding of the Jack Rabbits.
Biggest problem, in that little lever action was feeding the round.
You couldn't feed them "quick," you had to "look" at each round, as it went into the chamber, or it would kinda hang up.
I partially solved this problem by using a round nose bullet seat, along with the crimp, and the bullet seated "out" a bit, gave it a round nose/hollow point affect.
Just seat and crimp it slow and easy.

Of course, in the revolvers that isn't a problem.
But there will be a lot of "leading" issues to deal with.
AND....
They have a propensity to generate some "interesting" internal ballistics pressures.
Just something to keep in mind.

Rew · 10-01-2007, 12:01 PM

Also don't try loading HBWC's loaded backwards to much over 850 fps. There is a chance of blowing the solid part of the bullet through the hollow part and leaving the hollow part in the bore.

DorGunR · 10-01-2007, 02:14 PM

5knives · 10-01-2007, 02:16 PM

Good and informative points made by all, and no real disagreements.

WOW!

I should have been more clear that my comments were primarily directed at jacketed bullets.

All lead bullets seem to perform more satisfactorily at handgun and large bore Black Powder velocities than anything else, IMHO.

Hardcast seems to penetrate about as well as anything except FMJ at handgun velocities, and even soft or swaged has the ability to deform and 'keep on truckin' to a surprising degree. Though even light barrier penetration suffers with the softer bullets.

In the now famous Miami shoot out, the Agents 38's (and 9's? memory detail fails) performed EXACTLY as designed when impacting clothed human bodies (and failed to adequately penetrate the light cover of Auto windshield and car bodies) that's what resulted in the FBI decision to concentrate on more 'all purpose' penetrating projectiles.

Rew's point on the the HBWC is important for any Reloaders, lead (depending on hardness and pressence or absense of gas checks) performs best at lower velocities. And as opposed to what one might think the soft lead pills can penetrate deeper if not driven to too high a speed. (The higher speeds apparently cause early expansion and limit penetration.)

The reversed HBWC's of the '60's were driven at about mid-range load velocities or slightly over and they worked very well indeed.

Rew's comment about 'blowing the center out of bullets" and leaving a ring is very important, and never forget the same thing has happenned with jacketed SP and HP, at both too high AND too low a velocity.

Most of the bullet makers provide a velocity range for their bullets, and we (or at least I) should pay more attention to that data then we (I) do.

Thank you all for the comments and the good discussion! :

:

Regards,

Cobalt60 · 10-01-2007, 07:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rew

Also don't try loading HBWC's loaded backwards to much over 850 fps. There is a chance of blowing the solid part of the bullet through the hollow part and leaving the hollow part in the bore.

Good info! I'll make a note of that for future use. I'll also find out what load data was used for those I have. I've shot stuff by the guy before and trust him. But better safe than sorry.

Cephus · 10-01-2007, 07:26 PM

The CO's around here went back to the 45 and carry a M14 in their SUV !!!!
They must know something most don't !!!!!!!
REW some around here put gas checks on the solid end before loading !!!

Cobalt60 · 10-02-2007, 02:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cephus

REW some around here put gas checks on the solid end before loading !!!

Hmmm. Something else to research.

2rogers · 06-27-2008, 08:40 PM

please dont laugh. my glock 20 is for repo work,to shoot my way out of a car, not into it. hardballs seldom jam in any quality gun. my SA 1911 gets 230 fmj. and my carrygun,Novaks Browning hp gets fmj 124 +P+ hertenbergers. after several thousand rounds of lighter ammo, it still shoots 1 hole groups at 50' with the hot stuff. you just cant have enough practice. Hope we don't need to find out witch ammo would have been best, I'd choose reliability first.

5knives · 06-27-2008, 11:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2rogers

please dont laugh. my glock 20 is for repo work,to shoot my way out of a car, not into it. hardballs seldom jam in any quality gun. my SA 1911 gets 230 fmj. and my carrygun,Novaks Browning hp gets fmj 124 +P+ hertenbergers. after several thousand rounds of lighter ammo, it still shoots 1 hole groups at 50' with the hot stuff. you just cant have enough practice. Hope we don't need to find out witch ammo would have been best, I'd choose reliability first.

Welcome aboard Mr. 2rogers.

Good to see you here, especially as I notice we seem to think a lot alike!

Regards.

nutinauniversalshell · 06-28-2008, 05:19 PM

I dont carry my 10mm much anymore either.

Why?

Because I like my Sig 250.

If I could have the P250 in 10mm, I WOULD!
And I would carry it always.

Bigger is better. Tunnels are better than pot holes.

Overpenetration...ha! If it goes all the way through, it has most likely lost most of its energy...and if it still hits someone shit happens.

I dont want to take out any extras, but the person I shoot at better be dead.

kevlar=head shot.

Hunter07 · 06-29-2008, 01:00 AM

Here's an interesting article about 'terminal ballistics'.

Terminal Ballistics as Viewed in a Morgue

WFO2 · 06-29-2008, 08:59 AM

Dam good thread guys . For me it is the 1911 with either 230 FMJ or Golden Saber in 230 gr .

GARANDNUT · 07-08-2008, 10:06 AM

Over penetration is a likely problem with any round our caliber--see the above mentioned box-o-truth. Rounds which are hyped as better because they don't over penetrate is marketing hype since most will pass all the way through depending on many factors. Rapid expansion of the bullet is crucial. How do I know! because my 280 with expanding bullets that open fully and then exit kill deer more reliably and quicker than my 50 cal muzzle loader shooting .45 cal sabboted bullet. Shot a dear through both lungs and the heart with the Muzzle loader and the deer will run farther if the bullet does not expand. Hit and expand violently is the key. Staying in or exiting is academic except for the safety of those in proximity to the target. I carry hydro shocks in my .45s. I shoot 230 fmj at the range and out of my Thompson.

10-01-2007, 08:22 AM	#16
Moon IncogNegro Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 5,825	__________________ "Thou shalt not be a son-of-a-bitch". Magnus392, from Rules of Chuck 00011

10-01-2007, 02:16 PM	#21
5knives KaBoom Kontrol Modulator Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Colorado, Western Slope Posts: 16,229	Good and informative points made by all, and no real disagreements. WOW! I should have been more clear that my comments were primarily directed at jacketed bullets. All lead bullets seem to perform more satisfactorily at handgun and large bore Black Powder velocities than anything else, IMHO. Hardcast seems to penetrate about as well as anything except FMJ at handgun velocities, and even soft or swaged has the ability to deform and 'keep on truckin' to a surprising degree. Though even light barrier penetration suffers with the softer bullets. In the now famous Miami shoot out, the Agents 38's (and 9's? memory detail fails) performed EXACTLY as designed when impacting clothed human bodies (and failed to adequately penetrate the light cover of Auto windshield and car bodies) that's what resulted in the FBI decision to concentrate on more 'all purpose' penetrating projectiles. Rew's point on the the HBWC is important for any Reloaders, lead (depending on hardness and pressence or absense of gas checks) performs best at lower velocities. And as opposed to what one might think the soft lead pills can penetrate deeper if not driven to too high a speed. (The higher speeds apparently cause early expansion and limit penetration.) The reversed HBWC's of the '60's were driven at about mid-range load velocities or slightly over and they worked very well indeed. Rew's comment about 'blowing the center out of bullets" and leaving a ring is very important, and never forget the same thing has happenned with jacketed SP and HP, at both too high AND too low a velocity. Most of the bullet makers provide a velocity range for their bullets, and we (or at least I) should pay more attention to that data then we (I) do. Thank you all for the comments and the good discussion! :: Regards,

10-01-2007, 07:26 PM	#23
Cephus The OLD COOT one and only Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Glovers Gap WV Posts: 10,277	The CO's around here went back to the 45 and carry a M14 in their SUV !!!! They must know something most don't !!!!!!! REW some around here put gas checks on the solid end before loading !!! __________________ FREEDOM ONLY ACCEPTS ONE PRICE AND THAT IS BLOOD

06-28-2008, 05:19 PM	#27
nutinauniversalshell Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: TN Posts: 1,238	I dont carry my 10mm much anymore either. Why? Because I like my Sig 250. If I could have the P250 in 10mm, I WOULD! And I would carry it always. Bigger is better. Tunnels are better than pot holes. Overpenetration...ha! If it goes all the way through, it has most likely lost most of its energy...and if it still hits someone shit happens. I dont want to take out any extras, but the person I shoot at better be dead. kevlar=head shot. __________________ If you can't buy it build it. If you can't build it buy two.

10-01-2007, 12:01 PM	#19
Rew Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Colorado Posts: 9,710	Also don't try loading HBWC's loaded backwards to much over 850 fps. There is a chance of blowing the solid part of the bullet through the hollow part and leaving the hollow part in the bore.

10-01-2007, 02:14 PM	#20
DorGunR Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Maryland Posts: 30,905

06-27-2008, 08:40 PM	#25
2rogers Senior Member Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 3,504	please dont laugh. my glock 20 is for repo work,to shoot my way out of a car, not into it. hardballs seldom jam in any quality gun. my SA 1911 gets 230 fmj. and my carrygun,Novaks Browning hp gets fmj 124 +P+ hertenbergers. after several thousand rounds of lighter ammo, it still shoots 1 hole groups at 50' with the hot stuff. you just cant have enough practice. Hope we don't need to find out witch ammo would have been best, I'd choose reliability first.

06-29-2008, 01:00 AM	#28
Hunter07 I'm a grumpy SOB Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Frostbite Falls, MN Posts: 10,530	Here's an interesting article about 'terminal ballistics'. Terminal Ballistics as Viewed in a Morgue

06-29-2008, 08:59 AM	#29
WFO2 Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Heart Of Texas Posts: 2,187	Dam good thread guys . For me it is the 1911 with either 230 FMJ or Golden Saber in 230 gr .

07-08-2008, 10:06 AM	#30
GARANDNUT Pontificator Maximus Join Date: May 2006 Location: between the hills Posts: 8,751	Over penetration is a likely problem with any round our caliber--see the above mentioned box-o-truth. Rounds which are hyped as better because they don't over penetrate is marketing hype since most will pass all the way through depending on many factors. Rapid expansion of the bullet is crucial. How do I know! because my 280 with expanding bullets that open fully and then exit kill deer more reliably and quicker than my 50 cal muzzle loader shooting .45 cal sabboted bullet. Shot a dear through both lungs and the heart with the Muzzle loader and the deer will run farther if the bullet does not expand. Hit and expand violently is the key. Staying in or exiting is academic except for the safety of those in proximity to the target. I carry hydro shocks in my .45s. I shoot 230 fmj at the range and out of my Thompson.