9mm with hollow points - adequate?

500grains · 12-04-2008, 10:42 AM

I think it is generally agreed that the 9mm with ball is not a man stopper. Back in about 1980 the British SAS started the double tap routine to make up for the 9mm's lack of punch. US forces in the sand box use double taps regularly.

But what about 9mm with hollow points? I know a Marine who took CCI Gold Dot hollow point 9mm ammo for the invasion of Iraq and for the first 2 days he reported good results. Then he was out and switched to ball with less than spectacular results.

However, cops have generally switched over from 9mm to 40.

So the question is: Is a 9mm with hollow points a sufficient man stopper? Or should we relegate the 9mm to rabbit hunting?

I can personally report that a 9mm with 88 or 90 gr hollow points rips rabbits apart. But I once had to help a friend finish a wounded elk using 90 gr. hollow points in a 9mm Glock. They penetrated an inch or 2. It took me 15 neck hits to knock the elk down for good.

While I do not claim to be the only guy who ever shot an elk with a 9mm using 90 grain hollow points, I bet there are not many such idiots!

500grains · 12-04-2008, 10:44 AM

Just to follow up, a husband and wife couple who are friends of ours are just getting their concealed carry permits and they are thinking of getting 9mm semi autos. Probably the mini Glock. Any comments on that front would be appreciated. They are from Vietnam, so the wife is about 5'1" and 110 pounds. The husband is about 5'6" and 150 pounds. Their hand size is relatively small, and both have a bit of difficulty operating a Sig 226.

500grains · 12-04-2008, 11:00 AM

Here's a lung with a 9mm JHP through it:

And here is a 9mm leg wound:

10 Bears · 12-04-2008, 11:06 AM

Personal opinion?
If it doesn't have, at least, a .4 in front of the caliber, it's not big enough.

aviator · 12-04-2008, 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 10 Bears

Personal opinion?
If it doesn't have, at least, a .4 in front of the caliber, it's not big enough.

Tell them to go for a .40 from a different manufacturer.

Sanders · 12-04-2008, 12:22 PM

15 shots to kill a wounded elk?

Damn, it only takes me one shot with a .22LR to put down a lame horse.

500grains · 12-04-2008, 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sanders

15 shots to kill a wounded elk?

Damn, it only takes me one shot with a .22LR to put down a lame horse.

Yeah, but I did not want to shoot the head and ruin my friend's antlers. So I was shooting the neck. The winter fur, thick hide and meat were just too much for that tiny bullet.

500grains · 12-04-2008, 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aviator

Tell them to go for a .40 from a different manufacturer.

Not Glock?

Just curious - is that a personal preference or has Glock been having quality problems lately. What mfr would you recommend at this point? Thanks.

aviator · 12-04-2008, 01:15 PM

http://www.xdpistols.com/item/58064_...istol___X.aspx

ErikD · 12-04-2008, 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 500grains

Just to follow up, a husband and wife couple who are friends of ours are just getting their concealed carry permits and they are thinking of getting 9mm semi autos. Probably the mini Glock. Any comments on that front would be appreciated. They are from Vietnam, so the wife is about 5'1" and 110 pounds. The husband is about 5'6" and 150 pounds. Their hand size is relatively small, and both have a bit of difficulty operating a Sig 226.

Considering their small size, perhaps a compact revolver would be a better option for them since the grips are often more suitable for small hands than a double stacked auto?

5knives · 12-04-2008, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ErikD

Considering their small size, perhaps a compact revolver would be a better option for them since the grips are often more suitable for small hands than a double stacked auto?

Good thinking!

S&W model 640. stainless in .357 and it'll last forever, small enough for pocket carry, use midrange wadcutters for practice, and 158 gr lsw +P for serious. (so called FBI load) good choice between power and shootability in a snubby.

Buy 1 box of .357 125 gr. which, after shooting, will confirm the 38 +P for carry. And practice, practice, practice and they'll be well served.
The manual of arms will be simpler than with any semi-auto, and there are a million ways to mod the grips for a perfect fit.

Adequate combo for self defense carry. Wouldn't feel nekkid with that combo at all.

All IMHO, others MMV.

Regards,

P.S: try to get them the older models without the lock. There've been numerous complaints about their current run locking itself without human intervention. If I had to get one of the newest ones I'd go straight to a good 'smith and have him permanently disable the lock. I understand it's an easy fix.

ErikD · 12-04-2008, 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 5knives

The manual of arms will be simpler than with any semi-auto,

That too. KISS.

At least presuming that they are not very experienced with firearms.

Dean · 12-04-2008, 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 10 Bears

Personal opinion?
If it doesn't have, at least, a .4 in front of the caliber, it's not big enough.

Seriously hot loads not withstanding, it really needs to start with a .4 and the more numbers that follow it, the happier you'll be with the results! ;-)

I have two pals, one with a BFR in .450 Marlin and another with a single shot 'something' in .458 WinMag. While I don't have the descretionary income to justifiy a purchase like those, they sure do float my boat! :-)

Dean

5knives · 12-04-2008, 05:13 PM

IF S&W would just make the 640 in .44 special, they'd have a darn near perfect CC handgun.

That hammerles imitation design lets you get a higher grip, putting the bore closer to your hand, and makes pointing it easier and more controllable than most DA revolvers. One of the reasons women and others with smaller hands like it so well once the try it out. Much closer to pointing your finger.

I know others have made .44 snubbies, if Taurus or S&W still did that might be my first recommendation, but AFAIK only Charter is making them currently, and my experience with their first try back in the '70's was not positive, 2 out of five keyholes every time at 50 feet and 8-10 inch pattern was about as good as it ever got , 2 handed from a rest.

Big hole in the barrel helped convince an escapee (who'd just added a couple of rapes, some armed robberies and a GTA to his sheet) to just hold still for the cuffs, get in the car and behave. But that's the only real use it ever got.
Traded it right after that on a charter undercover .38 which got carried a lot and never shot much, handy little bugger though.

Really wish some decent manufacturer would produce a good snubby .44 though. I'd have a pair of them right quickly.

Regards,

Sanders · 12-04-2008, 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 5knives

Really wish some decent manufacturer would produce a good snubby .44 though. I'd have a pair of them right quickly.

Regards,

Too big?

12-04-2008, 10:42 AM	#1
500grains Soldier of Allah Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Crackerland Posts: 31,667	9mm with hollow points - adequate? I think it is generally agreed that the 9mm with ball is not a man stopper. Back in about 1980 the British SAS started the double tap routine to make up for the 9mm's lack of punch. US forces in the sand box use double taps regularly. But what about 9mm with hollow points? I know a Marine who took CCI Gold Dot hollow point 9mm ammo for the invasion of Iraq and for the first 2 days he reported good results. Then he was out and switched to ball with less than spectacular results. However, cops have generally switched over from 9mm to 40. So the question is: Is a 9mm with hollow points a sufficient man stopper? Or should we relegate the 9mm to rabbit hunting? I can personally report that a 9mm with 88 or 90 gr hollow points rips rabbits apart. But I once had to help a friend finish a wounded elk using 90 gr. hollow points in a 9mm Glock. They penetrated an inch or 2. It took me 15 neck hits to knock the elk down for good. While I do not claim to be the only guy who ever shot an elk with a 9mm using 90 grain hollow points, I bet there are not many such idiots! __________________ Racism will keep you alive.

12-04-2008, 12:22 PM	#6
Sanders Moderator Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 66,512	15 shots to kill a wounded elk? Damn, it only takes me one shot with a .22LR to put down a lame horse. __________________ "The truly dangerous man dresses inconspicuously and is soft- spoken. He walks away from most confrontations. The only time you learn that the truly dangerous man is mad at you is a split second before you die, for he never fights. He only kills. The truly dangerous man knows that fighting is what children do and killing is what men do." - Charley Reese 1986 3

12-04-2008, 10:44 AM	#2
500grains Soldier of Allah Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Crackerland Posts: 31,667	Just to follow up, a husband and wife couple who are friends of ours are just getting their concealed carry permits and they are thinking of getting 9mm semi autos. Probably the mini Glock. Any comments on that front would be appreciated. They are from Vietnam, so the wife is about 5'1" and 110 pounds. The husband is about 5'6" and 150 pounds. Their hand size is relatively small, and both have a bit of difficulty operating a Sig 226.

12-04-2008, 11:00 AM	#3
500grains Soldier of Allah Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Crackerland Posts: 31,667	Here's a lung with a 9mm JHP through it: And here is a 9mm leg wound:

12-04-2008, 11:06 AM	#4
10 Bears Moderator Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: E-Da-How Posts: 137,846	Personal opinion? If it doesn't have, at least, a .4 in front of the caliber, it's not big enough.

12-04-2008, 01:15 PM	#9
aviator unum de multis Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Bunker's Headquarters. Posts: 52,452	http://www.xdpistols.com/item/58064_...istol___X.aspx

12-04-2008, 05:13 PM	#14
5knives KaBoom Kontrol Modulator Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Colorado, Western Slope Posts: 16,229	IF S&W would just make the 640 in .44 special, they'd have a darn near perfect CC handgun. That hammerles imitation design lets you get a higher grip, putting the bore closer to your hand, and makes pointing it easier and more controllable than most DA revolvers. One of the reasons women and others with smaller hands like it so well once the try it out. Much closer to pointing your finger. I know others have made .44 snubbies, if Taurus or S&W still did that might be my first recommendation, but AFAIK only Charter is making them currently, and my experience with their first try back in the '70's was not positive, 2 out of five keyholes every time at 50 feet and 8-10 inch pattern was about as good as it ever got , 2 handed from a rest. Big hole in the barrel helped convince an escapee (who'd just added a couple of rapes, some armed robberies and a GTA to his sheet) to just hold still for the cuffs, get in the car and behave. But that's the only real use it ever got. Traded it right after that on a charter undercover .38 which got carried a lot and never shot much, handy little bugger though. Really wish some decent manufacturer would produce a good snubby .44 though. I'd have a pair of them right quickly. Regards,