no 4 buck or 00 buck?
 

I have heard that people who have actually tested buckshot recommend no. 4 buck for personal defense. Just like cops used to use 158 grain lead round noses in the .38 even though it was not the most effective, so too they used the 9 pellet 00 buck round instead of the 41 pellet no. 4 buck round.

Does anyone have personal experience with both to lend an objective viewpoint?

I've messed around with both in my younger days, both are nasty but for home defense I'd prefer number 4 shot, more of them. Either one will destroy a man if hit in the middle of the torso IMO

I personally favor the Sellier/ Bellot 00 Buck with 12 pellets, but... to each their own. ;)

Last 00 Buck purchace was Winchdester "Military" loads, with abit more velocity - about 100 fps more. Have found that (generally) the heavier shot penetrates deeper, while the lighter shot does more surface damage. To each their own...

#4 has proven to be less than successful in the upper midwest and northern New England states. Heavy winter clothing reduces it's effectiveness ... by a LOT!

#4 did work well against 150 pound people wearing pajamas, not so good against 250 pound people wearing insulated clothing and leather jackets or Carhart winter jackets.

Ayoob has commented on the subject a number of times.

Both my home SG's are loaded with #00 because I haven't been able to find any #000 locally.

Many LE Departments consider #1 to be the best compromise. FWIW, I haven't found any #1 for general sale in at least 10 years.

If I had to order it anyhow, and didn't want to use #00 for some reason, I'd order or load #1.

I don't believe in "Over Penetration" I believe in ADEQUATE Penetration and round balls have lousy ballistics and penetration, the lighter the ball the worse it is. That's why the "Cap and Ball" pistol shooters in the old days didn't use round balls in their revolvers, they used bullets in spite of the reduced velocity, they still penetrated better. And paper bulleted cartridges speeded up reloading ... A LOT! Tricky to pour powder out of a flask while ducking bullets and arrows.

JMHO, YMMV. As always

Regards,
:( ...

:thumbsup:

I recently found a stash of 000 Buck, but in 3"... which just coincidentally fits into the magazines for my Saiga 12. Gotta get out and test it for function, but... it just might become my "go to" load.

Another advocate of 000 Buck? Who woulda thunk? highfive

Probably just a coincidence! :D

highfive

Regards,
:) ...

Well, I cast these .36 cal . round ball, Have 15 of them in each barrel of my 12 ga. front stuffer.
Just for "kicks!" :D

.36 caliber? Damned close to 000 Buck diameter, as I recall... ;)

I guess the operative question would be... DOES it kick? :D

Yup, but the other end gets a real kick out of it. :thumbsup:

In the military we used 00 buck though we did play with some special purpose round called buck and ball but they were never general issue. I have tried 4 buck but come back to 00 because it is easier to find mostly Federal or Remington. I also reload it and cast for a .32muzzle loader so it just makes more sense. I used 00 on the boarder because it has better range and penetration. My shotguns are still loaded with 00. ;)

I like 3" 10 pellet 000 buck,2 3/4" 12 pellet 00,and 2 3/4" 16 pellet 1 buck.

The Federal 2 3/4" plated 00 12 pellet is my favorite.Winchesters' similar load is good too.
The Federal patterns a little bit tighter in my gun-but both are good performers.

I used to be a big advocate of the #4 3",and still might consider it for a limited home defense round,as it has less penetration capability than the bigger shot sizes.Its better than loading up birdshot,in my opinion,for that first shot or whatever.
It patterned well in my gun and seemed to be vicious,because of the recoil.

Then I did some math.

Based on the manufacturers stated velocity and payload weight specs for Winchester and Federal 3" 1 buck 24 pellet,2 3/4" 1 buck 16 pellet,2 3/4" 00 12 pellet, 3" 000 10 pellet,and 3" 4 buck 41 pellet loads,I calculated the muzzle energy of each load in foot pounds to get a general idea of the force that will be coming back at the shooters shoulder,and then calculated the ftlbs of energy based on weight of each individual pellet of the size of shot in question going at the stated velocity.

The thing is that with #4,you get ALOT of recoil because your pushing almost 2 ounces of shot(1.9ounces) 1210fps according to Winchesters' data, with a muzzle energy which is 2742.9ftlbs,but very little actual energy per pellet-66.9ftlbs,as there are 41 relatively small pellets that energy is spread out on,which means less penetration per pellet.

Thats not very efficient.Alot of recoil-producing muzzle energy with very little in the way of actual individual performance from each pellet.

Another consideration for home defense is the 2.19 ounce 3" 1 buck with 24 pellets.As loaded by Winchester,its only coming out of the muzzle at 1040fps,giving the payload 2318.4ftlbs of energy with each pellet receiving 96.6ftlbs of energy each.The recoil for this load is much more manageable,and its not copper plated,so all in all at its lower velocity and the probability of the pellets deforming much more it would be a good choice for those first indoor shots.

The Federal 3" 000 buck is 1.5 ounces, has 10 copper plated pellets coming out at 1225fps,and actually has much less recoil than the #4 load.In fact,if the numbers on paper are correct,it has the second least amount of recoil from the five I ran the math on,with a muzzle energy of 2265.6ftlbs,its very efficient,giving each of its 10 pellets 226.56ftlbs of energy apeice.
That energy is in the range of a single .380acp or 9x18 makarov pistol round.It is the most efficient load on paper,but lacks in a minor sense shot density,having only 10 pellets.

The Winchester 1 buck 2 3/4" 16 pellet load at 1.4 ounces has the least recoil ,but not by much-at 2220.32ftlbs with an overall muzzle velocity of 1250fps,giving each of its 16 pellets 138.77ftlbs of energy.The biggest benefit to this shell is that it gives good shot density without sacrificing too much individual pellet power.
Its also unplated so might be a better choice for home defense than a plated pellet option.

The 2 3/4" 12 pellet 00 buck as loaded by Federal weighs 1.4 ounces as well and goes 1290fps overall and gives 2385.36ftlbs divesting each pellet with 198.78ftlbs,which in my humble opinion,makes it a very good all around load-it gives good density with 12 pellets,has good energy per pellet,and doesn't make your shotgun kick like an elephant gun.In fact,you probably wouldn't notice the difference in recoil between any of the loads but that number 4 3".

The combination of high velocity and almost 2 ounces of shot gives that 3" number 4 buck alot of muzzle energy-meaning alot more recoil.
I think someone once posted an actual chart of pounds per square inch of recoil here once,and it was quite literally in the elephant gun range of recoil.
The way it has to distribute all that energy over 41 pellets,making each pellet individually less effective,for the price in recoil,is a fact that doing the math makes very apparent that it might not be the very best load.

This is totally something you can take or leave,I originally did all this 'paperwork' along with shooting each load to pattern it in my particular shotgun.It might be a little bit of 'overkill',but along with patterning your barrel it might be one way of finding the best shell for you.

It certainly exposed my once-referred to 'eviscerator' load for what it was,a poorly efficient load with a trade of energy that leaves alot of sting on the shoulder and doesnt really give anything special on the other end.The only thing it does really well is pattern-but then what do you expect with 41 pellets?

bought a case of winchester mil-spec 00 from midway pretty cheap recently. nothing special about it. even though buck has plenty of recoil to it, i can still pump em though rather quicky without drifting off target's. if this 00 isnt good enough, i'll just have to shuck out a few more.

OR toss a few slugs into the mix... ;)

ooooooooo i like slugs! they poke a large hole in most everything

Check Midway... ;)

I got my Mossy 500 set up with 6 rounds..........

In the pipe: Brenneke rifled slug.

In the mag tube: 00 buck, #4 bird shot, Brenneke slug, 00 buck, #4 bird shot.

2 big holes, 18 medium size holes and a shitload of lotsa little holes (or a big chunk or two of body parts missing)............. :D

Either way, that's a lotta holes the perps gotta try and plug if he wants to live long enough for me to step down on his neck. highfive

If that fails, I have my 1911A1 handy. :thumbsup:

Sportsman guide

http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/c....aspx?a=573019

Guns are bad. 911 is our friend.

Brian

Same here and point toward the person's head. He's going down.

Did you mean 9mm x eleven times is your friend?

Point man Jim "Patches" Watson UDT/Seal preferred #4 with a duck bill spreader.

Pretty much! :thumbsup: Load em all up in a front stuffer...

Brian

Interesting responses and thanks.

what the hell!
 

bitter taste ! shot column is short and dense in the house less than 10 yds at the worst ,you point lower center human torso with most loads from 20/12 shot gun they will go down ............

I had 3" 000 in mine when it was next to the bed.

Shouldnt have sold that Remy, great home defense gun and price is about $500 now instead of the $300 I had in it.

#1 buck 3'' for me.Not to many not to few.energizer

I agree and it don't have to be 3"
2-3/4 with 20, .30 cal. ball's will work just fine :thumbsup:

Few firearms/ammo discussions , excepting maybe the M-16 vs AK47 argument are more ... endless.

Part of this is the different scenarios any one individual imagines. Or may have experienced.

For years I was a big fan of #4 Buck, it performed well enough on lightly clad, small statured Asians and there wasn't much of a history regarding it's use on 265 pound coked up Negroes and Caucasians.

Now there is, results marginal in the southern states and unacceptable in the Northern States, where heavy winter clothing may be encountered much of the year.

Military and LE have pretty much stayed with 00 Buck for that reason, works well on big baddies, regardless of weather and/ or clothing, everyone atudying the situation seriously agrees that 000 Buck works even better

#1 Buck is the smallest anyone recommends for serious self defense use making it the .380 of self defense shotgun loads I guess. 0 and 000 are uncommon and hard to find so most people (like myself) settle on 00 and don't worry overmuch about it.

3 inch shells in any load are usually not recommended due to the heavier recoil and lower velocity. But if you can handle the recoil for repeat shots and don't consider the velocity loss important, then go for it.

The new Tactical loads, you'll note are even lower velocity and less recoil than 2 3/4 inch normal buckshot loads, and they are being well received, maybe too soon to say if they are really all that effective, should be okay for in home defense however.

Bird-shot ... IMHO, use it for birds, in humans it produces really ugly but shallow wounds, pretty high survival rate for folks shot with bird shot, but it fits many folks imagined scenario.

Some here know what 00 does to a human (or whitetail deer) and therefore make it their choice.

I think this depends on that personal scenario, most folks just want to stop an aggressor, not necessarily kill him/her/it. And the gun writers have made such a big deal out of the over penetration myth that many take it as gospel truth. Barring the one or two instances a year when a stray missed shot goes through a door, window or wall to kill or injure an innocent person, I've never heard a case of a LEO or Citizen shot penetrating the targeted person and then going through a wall to injure an innocent bystander.

Worried about 'over penetration'?

Practice more and don't miss.

Personally, if I'm threatened enough to feel a need to use deadly force in a confrontation, I do not want to wound and I do not want to kill.

I want to destroy utterly and immediately.

Were my intent anything less ... I'd never even consider pulling the trigger!

Nor should you!

As always JMHO, YMMV and on this topic I'm sure many will!

Regards,
:) ...

3" w/ 10 000 Buck pellets? Or 3" w/ 15 00 Buck pellets? Both at 1225 fps...

My Saiga 12 gobbles up either indiscriminately, and they feed just fine through the ten round magazines.

Decisions, decisions, decisions... :dunno:

Muzzle Loader works great, just pour a handfull of .36 cal pellets down the barrel.
Wad behind and a wad in front, abig charge of powder in back.
Perp that can stare down those double barrels, and be comfortable, deserves everything he gets!
"BOOM!"

2 3/4 00 buck should do just fine-equivalent to 9 .32 cal projectiles at once! Only downside would be the mess!:thumbsup:

Yep, I like my front stuffers.
You can select your own charge, make it light or heavy! :D

And a 3" with 15 pellets of 00 Buck? Is damn near the equivalent of getting 2 full rounds of your 2.75" x 9 pellet rounds; in the mind of an old grunt... when sending projectiles down the 2-way range, "too much" is NEVER enough. ;)

I don't care about the "clean up time", I just want to be around for that distasteful task, rather than using something too small for the task and pissing off the target, rather than obliterating it. There is no damn such thing as "over-kill" in a self defense moment, there is only survival. :thumbsup:

http://www.nps.gov/spar/historycultu...uns_II_407.jpg + http://www.nps.gov/spar/historycultu...7_edited-1.jpg = all you'll ever need.

Next...

Brian

There's .30 cal. bullet mold that casts three ball simultaneously.
There's a sprue that connects all three.
They can be stacked, still connected inside a 12 ga. shell.
They fit perfectly, nestled on top of each other.
In a front stuffing muzzle loader, either wrap with paper or imbed them in wax.

Allmost like a super choke, when they go down range, some comming apart some staying connected. :thumbsup:

Can you fire that from the hip, inside your house?

highfive

When I was a kid, I watched my ol' gran'dad dumpin' the pellets out of rounds and refillin' them with a stack of dimes.

The results? Well... ya hadda BE there. ;)

Mosquito control, 18th century style!!highfive

Good philosophy!:thumbsup:

Once...

Brian

My 3-1/2" 00 has 18 chunks of lead. It will add color to your shoulder out of an 835 though.:D